Classic WoW Wiki talk:Bookkeepers
Bookkeepers Notes As we finalize the members, we'll divide the lore pages according to personal interest. If in the case of overlapping interest, I'll decide who gets it based on prior experience or let them both monitor the page. If any of us have anything to add or edit to a page that isn't in our area, check with the person who's are it is. any disagreements, see me. I'm planning to assign Anticrash the Undead lore (both Scourge and Forsaken, and the charcters Sylvanas and Varimathras) and Illidan Rocks Illidan Stormrage, Maiev, the blood elves and Kael, and Vashj. I'll handle Night Elf religion, Furon Stormrage, Tyrande Whisperwind, the naga, and Medivh. I'm thinking hte three of us can share the Burning Legion.-Ragestorm :Awesome, I'm cool with that. =) --Anticrash 00:02, 11 Dec 2005 (EST) For all other lore, I think we can safely say whoever gets there first. Any other requests, it's yours for now- Ragestorm Sounds good to me. I'm glad I read this before I edited the Varimathras page!--Illidan Rocks 23:22, 11 Dec 2005 (EST) Minor edits we spot, like grammer or cohesion, we can edit with as we like. But for more sweeping changes, the Bookkeeper for the page must be contacted- I'll ask SilverSide if we can put a note that says "Mantained by the Bookkeepers- any comments should be addressed to their forum" on our staked pages- Ragestorm :Hmmm i am a little worried about making it sound like a page is owned by somebody; that is kinda against the whole wiki spirit... perhaps a template on the talk page and a note at the bottom of the lore section of the page? Throw some ideas at me here and I'll tell ya what I think (-; -- User:SilverSideℑilver§ℑide 19:04, 12 Dec 2005 (EST) Yeah, that may seem a little extreme, but what I was trying to get at was some sort of note to say that visitors to the page should contact the Bookkeeper who checks the contant of that particular page with severe questions or problems (minor ones would still be posted on the discussion for that page- Ragestorm We have a new member! Diggory will be joining us watching the Demigods, Aspects and Titans. I'd join up here, but I don't really have any specific area of expertise, just a fair amount of everything. O-o; --Kakwakas 08:57, 3 Jan 2006 (EST) ---- Warrior Lore Just so you guys know ive been working on an idea for the Warrior Lore section. As there is no real lore behind warriors, ive simply started listing famous warriors for each race, both historical and present. Would be happy for others to add their own characters and/or ideas :) - Diggory 12:30, 03 July 06 (GMT) ::That might actually be a good format for that sort of page- I tried adding to Warlock Lore once, and realized that the information was just a repition of all the orc history pages. I've no problem with it, as long as no player characters find themselves on the list. --Ragestorm 08:16, 3 July 2006 (EDT) I fixed some stuff on the Warrior Lore page. I listed Broxigar's full name and added in some reasoning of why Blood Elves cannot be warriors. I'm gonna get started a bit on the Mage Lore page.. I was thinking it'd be pretty cool if we listed specifically the role of a certain class (In this case the Mage of course) and how they are viewed in their own respective society, and what mages of certain races tend to specialize in or use as opposed to others.--Grid 11:43, 9 November 2006 (EST) Mage Lore Hey guys I've been having so much fun with the Mage Lore page that I'm going to extend my idea to all the class pages, starting with Warriors. What do you guys think? Some of it was guesswork on my part - particularly the elven stub - and I think it'd be really neat to have a stub of each race for every class page. So for example in the Warrior Lore page I'll write up a stub there about Orc Warriors, and how they are viewed in their respective race in societal standing, their purpose, preference of fighting, weapons, etc etc. What do you guys think? And please, input any great information you'd have regarding each of those stubs, such as prominent figures a certain race of warriors will admire.--Grid 13:24, 9 November 2006 (EST) Gnoll Rumor conflict with lore See my post in User talk:Charred But Alive/Gnoll Rumor. --Mikk 14:55, 16 June 2006 (EDT) : I don't think that Bookkeeper intervention is needed for rumors and fanfic (After all, Rumored races has survived in all its unholy glory without our consultation). if the writers want to defy lore, that's their choice. --Ragestorm 17:36, 16 June 2006 (EDT) :: Mkay. I read too much into WoWWiki:Policy/Writing/FanFiction then. It's your call =) --Mikk 17:43, 16 June 2006 (EDT) ::: I know I don't get involved with fanfiction sections, like ragestorm said what ever they want to write for their stories is up to them...Baggins 17:52, 16 June 2006 (EDT) ::::Oh, now I see what you were getting at, Mikk. I think I have to organize some sort of staff meeting or something so we can discuss how we work with such policies. Intervening in such situations is technically our provence by virtue of our manifesto, but I'm uncomfortable with reacting to fanfiction in any official capacity, as it tends to run parallel to our normal ends. ::::I hope the above made sense- I tend to use a dustier academic writing style for thing like this. ;-). --Ragestorm 19:13, 16 June 2006 (EDT) "Second burning legion invasion"? Heelp! We're having one of the nuttier conflicts in the history of the wiki over at Talk:Second Burning Legion Invasion. Could one of you guys please help us straighten it out? :-) --Mikk 21:02, 3 July 2006 (EDT) Sam Steamwheedle I wasn't going to try to bring you guys' attention to Sam Steamwheedle, but now I see that it was written by someone who applied, and was accepted as a bookkeeper. I won't say much more here but check out Talk:Sam Steamwheedle. --Mikk 05:56, 20 August 2006 (EDT) ::Thanks for the notification, Mikk. I see I wasn't stringent enough. Since he's basically vanished, I'll probably revoke his status. BTW, have you ever considered joining our ranks? --Ragestorm 06:11, 22 August 2006 (EDT) ::: Heh, thanks for the offer, but no. I just don't have the interest in lore to be very useful. I much prefer just sticking my nose into whatever happens to look like it needs having a nose stuck into around the wiki ;-) --Mikk 07:48, 22 August 2006 (EDT) ::Keep up the good nose-sticking. ;-P --Ragestorm 11:32, 22 August 2006 (EDT) Lore page Pardon for taking liberties with the Lore page. I had to toy with my new raytracing program :-) --Mikk (T) 10:19, 29 September 2006 (EDT) ::Funny, that's exactly how I pictured a lore library.--Ragestorm 12:02, 29 September 2006 (EDT) If here is right to ask questions, then I have a question about Windrunner sisters. which of them is the first?? Is it Alleria?? cause someone claimed me that Sylvanas is the first, and he said that he read statements that her father gave a bow to Alleria the second. Please let me know who is the first, second and third. --scodes 20:53, 18 December 2006 (Korean standard time) I believe the order from oldest to youngest is Alleria, Vereesa and Sylvanas.--Grid 07:28, 18 December 2006 (EST) When I read an article about Vereesa and Alleria it said that Vereesa is younger than Sylvanas, and Alleria is the eldest. Does anyone have different idea? --scodes 21:45, 18 December 2006(Korean standard time) ::Vereesa is definetly described as the youngest, and we're pretty sure that Alleria is the eldest. When Knaak talks about them, he usually references Alleria first, and then Sylvanas (humans have a tendency to list such things be order of age). Alternatively, Sylvanas is eldest. However, Vereesa is youngest. How could she idolize her "younger" sister?--Ragestorm 09:37, 18 December 2006 (EST) :::Since War of the ancient Trilogy is not published in Korea, I don’t have any other information except I get from here. According to your comment, I guess you're not sure who is first. I think the order of ages hasn’t reveal clearly yet. Is it right? --scodes 01:00, 19 December 2006(KST) I don't think it clearly stated who was eldest, but it's adamant that Vereesa was youngest. I recommend checking Day of the Dragon, if you can't find the War of the Ancients. If you don't mind waiting a few days, I can double check my books.--Ragestorm 11:20, 18 December 2006 (EST) :If you do so, I'd appreciate your help alot. --scodes 02:25, 19 December 2006 (KST) Blood Elf Lore Hey guys I've been updating Blood Elf lore alot this past year. Also, I want to dive in and elaborate more on Mage lore wiki, with specific divergences into different races of mages. By the way how do I make it so I tag myself with the date/time/etc and my username? This is Zexx. I already have an application in to be a Bookkeeper.--Grid 08:48, 6 November 2006 (EST) Click the signature button on top of the edit box :) --Tinker 07:56, 6 November 2006 (EST) --Grid 08:48, 6 November 2006 (EST) Thanks!--Grid 08:48, 6 November 2006 (EST) :Your commentary of the Blood Elf hunter issue has been noted and appreciated. For those fans seem to have difficult realzing that Blizzard and Metzen know what they're doing it is a big help. It's a hallmark of good work for those us who trust them. I am unable to offer you admission into the Bookkeepers, as I have been instructed not to grant any more positions. For reference, "magna" is the title of all Guardians, male of female, as per a retcon in "Cycle of Hatred."--Ragestorm 09:29, 6 November 2006 (EST) Thank you for the correction.--Grid 09:28, 8 November 2006 (EST) Azshara/Zin-Azshari/Eldarath Lately I have been intrigued by the Bay Of Storms in Azshara's possible relation to the Well of Eternity, as the bay is shaped like a circular well or lake. Originally I thought that Eldarath was the Night Elves' capitol from before the Sundering, but now I'm confused. This page seems to suggest that Zin-Azshari went beneath the waves and became the better part of Nazjatar, but later it seems to indicate that Eldarath might have been a part of it or that sections of the city's ruins are in present-day Azshara. Does anyone have additional insight into this? -- Jayce 09:07 7 January 2007 (EST) ::User:Baggins, our resident RPG expert, would know better than I about what the books say, but manual and novel lore (which is the primary source) clearly establish that Zin'Azshari was right on the shores of the Well of Eternity. Since the Well was located where the Maelstrom is now, that means Zin-Azshari, and thus Nazjatar (which the War of the Ancient trilogy confirms as essentially the same location) would have to have been near the Maelstrom, which is not anywhere near Azshara.--Ragestorm (talk · ) 23:32, 7 January 2007 (EST) :::Thanks Ragestorm. My thought was that the Sundering may have not only sunk the land but also moved the continents, leaving a well-shaped hole in Azshara. If in fact you are correct, the entry on Zin-Azshari should probably be updated to remove speculation about it being partially located in Azshara. I will wait for Baggins' comments and make the changes if warranted. -- Jayce 12:52 8 January 2007 (EST) :::Additionally, I would like to point out that the entry on Azshara states that this zone was once part of the night elves' capitol before the Sundering. Is this in error? If Zin-Azshari is in fact far away, and the geological locations of everything did not change during the Sundering but rather some parts just sunk, then why is the region called Azshara at all? I have a few more points but I will not belabor the issue. If there is sufficient doubt I may take up the discussion on the Azshara talk page.-- Jayce 08:16 8 January 2007 (EST) I have two theories abotu that, but both are speculative; firstly, that Azshara had some sort of retreat or estate in that region, and secondly (and more likely), that the night elves who landed there after the Sundering named the region after her in honor of their beloved queen, not yet realizing her actions, and the name stuck even after all was revealed. --Ragestorm (talk · ) 09:35, 8 January 2007 (EST) Illidan Welp, Since it caught my attention, and that other person didn't bother to repost it here, How persay is Illidan alive? I've watched the very, 'comic book' WHOOSH-y cut scene from one of the previous Warcrafts. In which Arthas kills Illidan. Looks like it's before he becomes the new Lich King. If someone could clarify that'd be great. --Kwertz0r 10:19, 13 January 2007 (EST) :Double-post, sorry. :) But, I read up a little bit. And it seems that the time period in which World of Warcraft takes place, just hasn't reached the part of the story where Illidan dies, would this be correct? --Kwertz0r 10:51, 13 January 2007 (EST) :::??? :::Though a rip in the torso from waist to neck can be fatal, it isn't always. If you factor the blind loyalty of Vashj and Kael in with the biting cold and resilient Kaldorei/demonic physiology, to was quite easy for him to survive.--Ragestorm (talk · ) 14:29, 13 January 2007 (EST) Battles, could they be expanded? I mean, can't the key battles of the First, Second, and Third Wars been expanded, giving semi-estimated numbers of the forces each side fought with? A lot of other wiki's have battle links on their main page, after all. -- 10:18, 12 January 2007 Semi-estimated numbers? No source really gives any numbers... You can't count what players build during hte battles LOL.Baggins 19:01, 13 January 2007 (EST) Additionally, there are few specific famous battles in Warcraft - famous overall wars, yes, but not famous individual battles (or at least none that can easily be described in the sense of a single article). 19:23, 13 January 2007 (EST) ::It's also a case of what is an actual battle, and, more importantly, what to call it. The only named ones are the Battle of Mount Hyjal and the Battle of Blackrock Spire. Some missions that were huge battles were actually skirmishes, if that much. As Baggins pointed out, we don't really have any numbers whatsoever, just troop compositions. That said, numbers for battles in WoW only could be estimated, as we know the number of players needed for raids, events, and the like. But there is just no information avaliable for any of the eariler games, and the War of the Ancients was essentially non-stop fighting for months.--Ragestorm (talk · ) 23:14, 13 January 2007 (EST) :::There were at least 1000 Night Elves engaging the Burning Legion in the War of the Ancients Trilogy at the start of the war. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by . :::: That's extremely rough - we don't know if it was upwards of 10,000 which would make suggesting 1,000 and above a little odd - one could say "thousands", perhaps. 13:28, 14 January 2007 (EST) If there were only one thousand, the "trilogy" would have been over by chapter five of The Demon Soul. Again, the War was really a few extended battles and skirmishes among the major characters.--Ragestorm (talk · ) 22:47, 14 January 2007 (EST) Burning Crusade Expansion Lore I understand the expansion just came out, and there are still questions left unanswered. However, there is a wealth of knowledge that is simply not listed. For example, for the entire section of Coilfang Reservoir there is absolutely no lore. Nothing about how it got there, why the Naga are using it, why it is run over with monsters from the outside or how it is draining the water supply from the area. Is there any way that this could be expanded? --User:Sern 05:50, 22 January 2007 ::Yes. Someone with both a WoW and a WoWWiki accounct can investigate, pay attention to quest dialogs, etc., than come back here and put it in the article. Unless we ave source material, our hands are tied.--Ragestorm (talk · ) 08:55, 22 January 2007 (EST) Warlock Lore Ive attempted to overhaul the warlock lore page. Most of the original content is there including my own additions, but ive just reorganised it a bit. Comments & suggestions welcome --Diggory 06:58, 25 January 2007 (EST) class lore As discussed with Rage, i would like to change (or add to) my specialisation to class lore and simular things. Ive been finding myself browsing and making edits to class lore of late, the revamp of warlocks being the main one so far. Anyone have any problems with this? --Diggory 08:06, 29 January 2007 (EST) :I don't see any problem. Remember that you can yourself change your specialisation any time, but it's better to advise us before or after the change on the talk page.--[[User:Kirochi|'K' )']] (talk) 14:24, 30 January 2007 (EST) I started this some time ago beginning with mages and then rogues. Later I'll move on to hunters. I would appreciate any help I can get.--Zexx 02:33, 31 January 2007 (EST) :Diggory's been planning stuff for a while, so it looks live you've got that assistance. --Ragestorm (talk · ) 08:38, 31 January 2007 (EST) ::That's nice to hear. How come you didn't do anything before Diggory? Were you waiting for the okay?--Zexx 15:00, 31 January 2007 (EST) :::It was originally Diggory's suggestion, so I let him handle it. He then faded, and Baggins took over. The project is also a remnant of the early bookkeepers, when we all specialized and the like. You two can handle this overhaul (you are officially acting under my authority). I'm hopeful that this will be the flagship project of the new Bookkeepers. --Ragestorm (talk · ) 20:07, 31 January 2007 (EST) Didnt want to change something as big as class info before checking no, but ill come up with something now :D nice to be working with you zexx :) --Diggory 11:54, 2 February 2007 (EST) Bookkeepers rules ''4) Applicant should have interpretations of history, but not allow biases to show in ANY of their work. In other words, we don't care what you think of the new choices for races- Your opinion is your own, and please keep it that way. Does that ('work') mean discussion pages? I say, to me, my 'work' means what I write on article pages. But do I violate these rules if my comments on talk pages are biased? It's rather easy to avoid bias when you're a Bookkeeper on an article page, as you're just referring to facts. But am I an outlaw if my comments, without involving any edit war, appear biased to you, Ragestorm? We're nothing but humans after all. Oh, another question : I've had bit of a fight on Talk:Vanndar Stormpike. I was sure to be right in any of my answers but nonetheless Patrigan has made me doubt. Did my behavior cross the red line? Should I leave the Bookkeepers?--[[User:Kirochi|'''K )']] (talk) 08:27, 2 February 2007 (EST) :Talk pages excluded- it's to be expected (I was also writing that to specifically exclude applicants who to too anti-draenei or anti-blood elf). I'll take a look at Stormpike when I have a minute, but it's probably no worse than what I've gotten myself into. --Ragestorm (talk · ) 08:52, 2 February 2007 (EST) Unknown Troll Tribes I posted questions on Talk:Shadowglen_Trolls and Talk:Shadowtooth in regards to sources for the names of these tribes. To my knowledge, I don't remember either being specifically named, but if they were, then I'd much rather ''expand my knowledge. Thanks, Bookkeepers, I really admire what you do! --Zedric 07:45, 15 March 2007 (EDT) :I redirect you to User:Bevans, Sen'jin's Bookkeeper. --Ragestorm (talk · ) 10:38, 15 March 2007 (EDT) ::Thankya, sir! --Zedric 12:24, 15 March 2007 (EDT) Shadowpine Trolls Forgive me if I am asking this question in the wrong place and feel free to redirect me if that is the case. However, I was wondering about the Forest trolls in the Ghostlands. The purple-haired trolls are called shadowpine trolls, whereas the forest trolls in Eversong Woods with the red hair are called Amani trolls. Are the Shadowpine trolls part of the Amani tribe or a completely separate tribe with their own lore? --Aebacon :The Shadowpine are Forest Trolls, a split tribe from the great Amani Empire. They are most probably Amani Trolls.--[[User:Kirochi|'''K )']] (talk) 04:45, 23 March 2007 (EDT) ::So, they would be an independent tribe. Would they then be getting their own page and listed as a forest troll tribe? Also, is there any lore on them anywhere? Fore example, something that would tell how they came to live just outside Zul'Aman and thus split up the Amani tribe between the Amani living in Zul'Aman and those living in Eversong Woods? --Aebacon 02:15, 24 March 2007 (EDT) :::I'm pretty sure "Amani" in addition to being the tribe name is also the general term for all forest trolls in this case. They should definitely get their own page if they exist (haven't been out there yet). --Zedric 02:19, 24 March 2007 (EDT) ::::I agree with Zedric.--[[User:Kirochi|'K )']] (talk) 05:27, 24 March 2007 (EDT) Head Bookkeeper's assistant Hello! I'd like to have an enlightenment on Baggins' role as the Head Bookkeeper's assistant, from Baggins himself or from Ragestorm. Thanks!--[[User:Kirochi|'K )']] (talk) 10:31, 7 July 2007 (UTC) :At the time of the position's creation, the Assistant Head Bookkeeper was intended to be someone who could speak with a day-to-day air of authority on a variety of lore topics (at the time, everyone, including the Head and the Majordomo, was in charge of a specific area or lore, usually divided by race), and who would work with the Head Bookkeeper on a variety of other projects. His role differs from that of the Majordomo mainly in that the Assistant Head cannot process new member applications. Baggins was also the Assistant Policy Writer, charged with representing Bookkeeper interests in discussions of official policy. Note that this is all plugged into what is now an outdated model (which wouldn't be outdated if everyone on the team were still here), abd certain aspects of the position are likely to change. ''Addendum: the position was born during the Draenei Crisis, when the Majordomo at the time was AWOL and I needed someone who could speak for me.--Ragestorm (talk · ) 13:16, 7 July 2007 (UTC) ::R-right, thank you. What's 'AWOL'?--[[User:Kirochi|'''K )]] (talk) 18:04, 9 August 2007 (UTC) :::'A'bsent 'W'ith'o'''ut '''L'eave. British Armed Forces term, now exported. --Ragestorm (talk · ) 22:11, 9 August 2007 (UTC) Question about lore Do dark elves excist in WoW? I ask this because of this page: Pilgrim Gal'ressa -- Dyna18 17:54, 13 July 2007 (UTC) :Dark Elves technically don't exist. Night, High, and Blood. The nearest I can figure is that he's an undead elf whose body hasn't rotted. --Ragestorm (talk · ) 20:46, 13 July 2007 (UTC) Lore exclusive and introduced in World of Warcraft As we know, the Warcraft universe prior to WoW's release had a very rich and extensive backstory already. I'm just curious what current lore (people, places, factions, anything...) was introduced with WoW. I'm more concerned with the bigger things that played more of a pivital role in the game, not the small stuff...but any and all answers will be helpful! Ayalafatalis 16:34, 20 July 2007 (UTC) :The draenei newer backstory was introduced in WoW, as well as the Defias. There are others, but those are the two I can come up with easily. :) --Sky (t · · w) 06:47, 8 August 2007 (UTC) ::The whole Ashbringer/Mograine thing, the one that sends everyone into a frenzy, was introduced in WoW. As were the Aqir and the Ahn'Qiraj story arc. And Malfurion's disappearance, and the identity of Deathwing's children. --Ragestorm (talk · ) 12:04, 8 August 2007 (UTC) Role of Players in Lore So, this is something I thought about. Are the actions which player characters do in World of WarCraft considered a part of the lore. For example - most of the NPCs/Bosses/Lore characters have "killable" status, does this mean that if there is Warcraft 4 set right after WOW:TBC Illidan, Kel'Thuzad, Kael and other major lore characters will be considered dead? Probably not. But this also mean that the consequences would have never happened - Illidan is not dead, Akama has still not betrayed him, Maiev lies in her prison. I was reading through Kel'Thuzad's article , when I saw this: "He is ultimately defeated by the players, but does not die. As a lich, he may reform using a part of his former self (the part of his "soul") kept in a magic item known as a phylactery". So, is he considered dead with a chance to return to life through his phylactery or he is considered alive in his flying bastion? I think we should assume that time has 'stopped' and nothing happens until an expansion or another game comes out(Rexxar moves to Outland, so did Lord Kazzak in 'The Burning Crusade'). So, what do you think about this?Dakovski 16:02, 12 September 2007 (UTC) Think of the WarCraft series as a comic book. I think pretty much anything we do in the game or are able to do in the game is of nearly no consequence, because if Blizzard wants, they can change it completely and bring back characters from the dead or add in things to make the game more interesting. For example the decimation of Draenor somehow created a bunch of meteors vastly different from each other ecologically, and able to sustain atmosphere, air and water despite the absence of oceans, relative proximity to a sun and a planetary core... Planetary cores allow gravity to exist, and clearly Outland doesn't have one. Also, every Expedition hero managed to survive, the Mok'Nathal, the Mag'har, tons of draenei, arrakoa, ogres, etc. Outland is teeming with life when it's supposed to be utterly dead. Reasoning? Because a dead Outland would make a bad game, and it just looks cool the way it is now. I'm sure in the next linear storyline iteration of WarCraft Illidan would be dead, but if the character was needed to support a new storyline, he can easily be whisked back from the dead with a convenient explanation. Happens alot in comics. Captain America got assassinated with three rounds from a high calibur sniper rifle in the Civil War arc a few months ago, and if I remember correctly this is about the third or fourth time he's died so far. --- Zexx 16:46, 12 September 2007 (UTC) Sacked from Bookkeepers Hi guys, i noticed im no longer listed as a bookkeeper. All I can say is fair play, ive been far too inactive to be any use. Sorry about that but RL etc etc. Best of luck to you all and ill still be a fan of lore and reading the many fine pages you all no doubt have contributed too. --Diggory (talk) 13:24, 16 November 2008 (UTC) Catapult/Blight Spreader I was looking at the "Forsaken catapult" article with an eye toward expanding it and noticed that it redirected to "Blight spreader" with a note that potential editors might want to contact the Bookkeepers. As far as I can tell, in WoW itself, the device is always referred to as a catapult, as in its trial run in the quest (although admittedly only in the nameplate, the quest text just says "a vehicle") and in Wintergrasp. So before I set in on that article I wanted to know whether "Blight spreader" is a beta name that never really manifested or whether there is another source for the name that I should incorporate when expanding/moving the article. Clevermoniker (talk) 21:34, 3 February 2009 (UTC) :Well Clevermoniker, "Blight Spreader" seems to be the newer name. The name "Forsaken Catapult" came from early official previews (seen here at WWI), and the skin has that namehttp://www.wowhead.com/?npcs&filter=cr=35;crs=0;crv=ForsakenCatapult. In the quest you mentioned the vehicle is called a "Forsaken Blight Spreader" according to Wowhead. Other types seem to be the "Forsaken Catapult" from the Wrathgate movie, the "Blight Slinger" and "Blight Spreader" from The Battle For The Undercity, and the "Wintergrasp Catapult".-- 23:15, 3 February 2009 (UTC)